Recognition of true Evil
One of the biggest problems in the world today is the notion that True Evil doesn't exist, and people who commit evil are just "making mistakes" and that they were not really responsible for their evil.
All people are motivated by the desire to be happy. Even when someone is doing something for Altruistic reasons, they are still doing it because it makes them happy to help others. All actions are driven by character, not by others actions.
If you react to others, it is because you have a motive to react. You think revenge will make you happier, or make you feel better, etc. No one makes you do things that you have a choice to do.....by definition.
For example, if someone robs a bank, some will wonder...."gee, what caused him to do that?"
Nothing! He made a choice to do it!
When the terrorists, kill their fellow Muslims, some will say...."gee, what caused them to do that"?
Nothing! They had a choice to do it.
When people hate the United States, some will say, "gee what did we do to cause such hate.”?
Nothing! They have a choice to hate or like us!
This type of thinking ignores the fact that people generally act on things that they believe in or in things they believe will make them happy. People who rob banks believe that money will make them happy.
Terrorists who kill Americans in the name of God, believe they will be made happy in an after life, or in other words they do it because of what they believe, not because they are poor or we are trying to give them freedom, or we are in their country. They "hate" us no matter where we are because it is natural for evil to hate good.
"Where the hate is, there you will find the evil." We are supposed to dislike sin, and other evil acts, but those who are twisted in their thinking find it easy to "hate" those they disagree with. "Hate the sin, but not the sinner!"
While the correct view is to disagree with those who you feel are not doing the right thing, it is wrong to "hate" them. Hate is a tool for evil people. As one famous person once wrote, "hate will take you down the dark side", or words to that effect.
The reason why the Jews are so hated is because evil people and those without a spine think that someone who says that there is no moral relativism in the world, are afraid that they may be right. And that there may be a "reckoning" by someone who will say that there was a "higher standard" of right and wrong than they wanted to rationalize.
The Jewish Prophets would enter a town and preach the "truth" and more importantly, they would not just say it as their belief, they said it as a fact because they had spoken directly to God.
This brazenness of "fact" and not belief coupled with telling people how they were doing morally wrong acts, allow people to issue forth their anger and hate.
Today, we find those who are in the mode of thinking that people hate America because of something that we have done, when in reality, when you do good things and have a value system and economic system that produces the most wealthy people on the planet as far as numbers go, then you will have people showing their envy, hate, spite, etc.
South America has just as many resources as we do, but yet they do not have near the wealth. Why? Because you need competition and a system that allows success, (which must include the allowance for failure).
So, again, it is not our policies that has brought so much hate for us, it is the envy, and greed that has allowed people to do what they like to do.....Hate those who they envy.
Our wealth does not cause hate, people hate because it is what they want to do. The terrorists believe that they will be happy and will be doing God's will if they bring about Shira, or in other words, Political and Religious Law combined into one system.
If the world loved America, I would be worried. It would mean that we were just as immoral a nation as Iran, N. Korea, and others that hate us. I am glad those nations hate us, it means we are doing something right.
If you belong to a religion that eveyone loves, you better re-examine it, because the world will "persecute" the saints.
Evil hates good. The world hates the Jews because they are the choosen ones of God. If the world loved them, they should wonder if they are truely doing the things that God wants them to do.
Those that want to appease evil are doing more harm than they can imagine. Those with the....Neville "Peace In Our Time" Chamberlin Philosophy must have slept through high school history. You can not appease evil. Peace at any price usually means giving in to despots or tyrants and giving up your freedom. To Communists and Terrorists, peace means "no more opposition" to their system.
People are accountable and responsible for their actions. Neither the Devil nor circumstances cause them to do things. They have their ability to choose to do evil and to hate.
Never forget this...."People do things because of their wants and their character and not because of outside influences."
Influences build character, they do not cause actions. It is how we react under stress and hardships that define us, not how we act when things are normal or great.
"Where the hate is, there you will find the evil."
IMHO.
posted by Free Agency Rules @ 11:51 AM
24 comments
24 Comments:
Wow, I couldn't disagree with you more. This is an incredibly shallow, simplistic analysis and ignores over 100 years of American foreign policy. In addition, if the "terrorists" hate America because of its so-called freedom, why don't they hate Switzerland too? This flawed logic does not withstand even minimal scrutiny.
"People do things because of their wants and their character and not because of outside influences."
Are you suggesting that outside influences have no bearing on someone's wants and character?
ii,
Outside influences shape character, they dont "cause" choice. By definition, people choose, no one forces them to rob a bank. Usually :)
No one "makes" another unhappy.
Everyone goes thru ups and downs, a well adjusted person maintains his perspective, and some will even say, "well, there are others worse off than me."
People are either happy or they are not. Job could have blamed others or even God for his situations, but he as all people of character do, kept a positive outlook no matter what the influences around him.
Satan tried to influence Jesus, but he knew he was in charge of how he lived his life as all of us choose to live it the way that we believe makes us happy.
If someone insults my Mother, I have choices as to how I deal with it. If I have a character that is above "reacting" to others, then I won't react. If I am a person who "wants" to react because I think it is the right thing to do, then I will react.
I hoped there would be people who disagree because it is an important point to make...People are accountable and should not be "let off the hook" just because they "didn't get their spinich" when they were little.
If someone robs a bank and the Jury looks at a persons upbringing to determine accountability, then we are in trouble.
Too often we classify people as "insane" so we can do what the Russians did when they wanted to get rid of people who didn't conform.
As always I respect your opinion, even when we disagree.
Glad you dropped by.
FAR.
P.S.,
I didn't think I even implied that the "Terrorists hate America because of our freedom."
They hate America because of their beliefs. They believe that our Immoral acts of Sodomy, Adultry, and other sins that are evil in their view, need to be dealt with by imposing their Moral Religion of covering up women and not showing even a "bare arm."
JMHO.
FAR.
Well, I agree with it too. People have there free agency and there are always conquences to our action, wheather it be good or bad.
I saw pictures yesterday of seven year old children holding rifles and marching around in unison. These children are being taught to hate. What a shame.
Thanks Lucy,
One of the most important things in thinking clearly is to tell the truth even if it goes against your worldview.
For example, I think there are "fishy" things that happened during 9/11. There are many questions that need to be answered, but since I have no "hate" in my heart, I will not draw any conclusions based upon my worldview as some do by "blaming Bush" because of hate and not because of logic.
When we tell the truth, people will find it painful...."the truth hurts" is sooooooo true.
Thanks for dropping by Lucy.
FAR.
Outside influences shape character, they dont "cause" choice.
This is the classic logical sylogism. If X, then Y, if Y then Z, therefore if X then Z. Outside influences shape character and character shapes the choices we make and, therefore, outside influences shape the choices we make. Whether you want to call it cause and effect, there is an influence that cannot be denied.
I agree that no one "makes" another unhappy, but what a luxury it is to be able to philosophize about such things when we are not starving or under attack in some way. We do not sit in our homes at night wondering if a death squad will knock at the door and, thus, are in no position to judge the emotional toll and effect on someone's character such stress must have.
What you describe, by the way, is the Buddhist concept of detachment. The Buddhists said clearly what the authors of the Bible couldn't manage to spit out.
Have you ever read People Of The Lie by M. Scott Peck? Scott Peck is a Christian psychiatrist who approached the concept of evil from a psychiatric perspective. He defines evil as the opposite of living (as evil is live spelled backwards) and, from there, defines evil as anything that has its purpose to distort reality. He then illustrates the point with case studies of people who are so narcissistic that they would rather distort reality, kill, lie, cheat than ever admit their own imperfection.
The book is a must read for anyone really interested in the topic of evil.
ii,
Very interesting. Yes, you are correct. Influences shape character and then character makes choices.
The differences are in which way the influences shape the character.
Two people can have the exact same influence shape their character and with one it will strengthen, while with the other it will enhance their weakness.
There is an old saying that goes something like this..."What doesn't kill you, can make you stronger." Well, the opposite can also be true if your character is such that you choose to be depressed instead of choosing to become stronger.
Everything is about "choice." I believe our spirits choose to come here, and therefore cannot say "It's not my fault, I never wanted to be born!"
It is all about Accountablility and Responsibility.
ii said: "What you describe, by the way, is the Buddhist concept of detachment."
Mmmm, interesting again. I might really like to read about that.
I don't know if that matches what I am saying, or rather what many have said but, to put it another way...."I don't believe in the Eastern Philosophy that we are born with a *blank slate* and that therefore we are merely the product of our environment."
But rather anyone who has witnessed babies growing from their birth can see that they each have their own character and personality from just about the moment they are born. All of my grand kids, (8), and my children (3), have all had their own character and personality and have made different choices when presented with similir if not exact same influences.
Evil to me is someone who accepts and/or promotes "force, pain, and/or death."
Force meaning trying to make others do things against their free will, even if the evil person is doing it for what they precieve to be *a good cause*."
FAR.
Well, the opposite can also be true if your character is such that you choose to be depressed instead of choosing to become stronger.
This is where we diverge Tom Cruise. :-) The first flaw with this statement is that it gives the impression that getting depressed and becoming stronger are mutually exclusive. When, in fact, the former is often part of the emotional path to the latter.
The second flaw with this statement is that depression is not a choice. Depression is a natural emotional adjustment to big changes in someone's life. Those who attempt to deny themselves the chance to suffer, also deny themselves the chance for true joy. It is the ying and the yang and you cannot have one without the other. The idea that you can choose to live life without ever experiencing sadness is way too Church of Scientology for my taste.
In addition, some people suffer from depression as a legitimate medical condition and, thus, truly have no choice in the matter. A close friend of mine suffers from depression. She is a very strong and successful woman who, after years of taking anti-depressants, decided to fight it herself. It was like night and day. She couldn't even get out of bed. It was debilitating and she couldn't function. She accepts her condition for what it is and takes meds in order to deal with it. In my view, that is true strength.
Choosing not to be depressed is as impossible as choosing not to have a heart condition. I can appreciate the idea of choice and responsibility, but there are some things that you cannot control and, thus, must accept. Those who think they can control everything are egotists, and I am sure I do not need to remind you of the Bible's teachings about the proud and haughty man.
Evil to me is someone who accepts and/or promotes "force, pain, and/or death." Force meaning trying to make others do things against their free will, even if the evil person is doing it for what they precieve to be *a good cause*."
This could get us going on a political and religious discussion for days (ala the Religious Right). But, to the point, read Peck - evil is far more subtle than that. Yes, evil people try to impose their will by force, but that is a symptom of a bigger psychological disorder. A person who tries to impose his/her view on others is usually a narcissist of the worst kind. While we are willing to call the violent narcissists evil, there are non-violent narcissists who are equally destructive, yet get away with their evil without reproach from society.
ii,
" it gives the impression that getting depressed and becoming stronger are mutually exclusive."
True. Perhaps Depression was not the correct word to signify, "giving up" instead of "fighting back."
But Never-the-less the choice is still there for the statement that "two people with the same influences can react in opposite directions." True?
That was/is my point in it's most succinct statement.
"Those who attempt to deny themselves the chance to suffer, also deny themselves the chance for true joy. It is the ying and the yang and you cannot have one without the other. The idea that you can choose to live life without ever experiencing sadness is way too Church of Scientology for my taste."
I couldn’t agree more with the above.
However, I think getting depressed and sadness are not necessarily the same reaction. Maybe just semantics. I think it is natural to become discouraged and/or sad, but both of those should be temporary feelings and not necessarily actions, whereas people who have a condition of depression are probably fighting a medical condition as you pointed out rather than “reacting” to some influence.
I think I would like Peck, because I agree with your statements about his views.
I do not think I have many things, if any in common with Scientology.
:)
FAR.
But Never-the-less the choice is still there for the statement that "two people with the same influences can react in opposite directions." True?
Two people with the same influences can, of course, react in opposite directions, but I still am not convinced that it is a matter of choice. A friend and I were having this discussion just yesterday about how amazing it is that some people we know have emerged emotionally well adjusted from traumatic events while others completely crumble over trivia.
I have often wondered how much of our emotional health we are born with, just the same way we are born with physical health. Why can't someone be predisposed to mental weakness just the same way someone would be predisposed to a heart condition?
Indeed, as you recognize and I agree, anyone who has witnessed babies growing from their birth can see that they each have their own character and personality from just about the moment they are born.
If we are largely born with our character and personality, how much can environment really change that?
BTW - taking your post on its terms, you have got to abandon that nonsense cliche about hating the sin, but loving the sinner. Where there is hate, there is evil and, just because you are hating an abstract concept doesn't make it any less evil to hate sin.
ii,
I agree about not hating an abstract completely.
I sometimes modify that cliché to be "Dislike the sin, but love the sinner."
Hate is never right and it only hurts the person with the hate.
I will try more often to put it more correctly because the concept is still right.
For example:
If one of my relatives was a bank robber, I would be against robbery, but still love the person.
If we are largely born with our character and personality, how much can environment really change that?
Exactly! I believe it is all about choice to sacrifice and the choice to pick a path that we all believe will make us happy. Some of us can see that the choices we make are the moral or correct choice and others lie to themselves as they would rather distort reality, kill, lie, cheat than ever admit their own imperfection.
We all choose two identies as we are growing up....
1. An Identity that conforms. One that wants to be loved and accepted by all, and
2. An Identity that we choose that makes us happy to be different, an individual.
Those choices form who we are and our understanding of who we percieve we are.
Evil people are the ones who want a shortcut to happiness, rob, do whatever to get gain by others hard work and not their own.
FAR.
BTW,
As far as being born with a personality, I did a check on the Bible for any references to that and this is what I found....
"Jer. 1: 5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Now I understand that people will say that a person can take things out of context and all of that, but never-the-less, it seems as though there might be something to having a personality before we are born, because this matches with what anyone can observe when watching the personalities of little babies be so different, yes?
FAR.
My parents have told me many times that I've had the same character since I was a kid. And I believe them.
I've seen kids who are shy from day one. A friend of mine has a 1 1/2 year old daughter who is mean. She doesn't smile, she'll practically snarl at you when you walk by. I have no doubt she's going to grow up to be a b!
Here are Peck's symptoms of an evil personality disorder -
1. consistent destructive scapegoating behavior, which may often be quite subtle; 2. excessive, albeit covert, intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury; 3. pronounced concern with one's public image and self-image of respectability, contributing to a a stability of lifestyle but also to a pretentiousness and denial of hateful feelings or vengeful motives; and 4. intellectual deviousness, with an increased likelihood of disturbance of thinking in times of stress.
denial of hateful feelings...
Boy, I think I need to get a copy of Peck's book. I love Philosophy because it is fasinating.
For example, I wonder if maybe we are born into a family based upon our personality and the needs and challenges that the environment we are placed in provides us.
FAR.
Peck is most well-known for his bestseller The Road Less Traveled, which you would also enjoy.
Peck was (he passed away last year) a Christian and does a very good job of demonstrating the compatibility of his values with his psychiatric training. The Road Less Traveled has an entire section of the book dedicated to the psychology of faith.
I'll be curious to see if you change this post in any way once you read People Of The Lie.
The book that I found most enlightening on the subject of evil is "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis.
He was a disciple of Freud and like Freud an Atheist until he began analyzing the world around him and then became a Christian
What part of the post would you anticipate I might change?
FAR
Well, I think this jealousy explanation for evil is only a fraction of the correct answer. It doesn't explain why "terrorists" don't hate Sweden.
In addition, this explanation for evil completely fails to explain the racism that was America during slavery and Jim Crow. Jealousy does not explain why Whites dressed up in hoods and burned crosses in yards, bombed churches, murdered people, prevented them from voting, etc. and why their descendants today rationalize why it was all okay. Sure, all these Christian hypocrites love to point the finger at the Islamic world while entirely whitewashing the appalling evil that is literally in their backyard.
It doesn't explain why "terrorists" don't hate Sweden.
I think your right about that. I think that people are taught hate and they either accept it or they reject it.
It is still a matter of people doing what they think will bring them happiness.
"Hate is a learned trait."
A person's identity is how you describe their behavior, it is not poured in stone. It can change an grow and it can go down hill.
I think we are born with certian qualities/traits that were perhaps learned prior to birth and then we are placed in an environment that is used to test those qualities.
If you are a person who can lift 300 lbs with ease then if you are asked to lift 200 lbs, it is not much of a test. But if you can only lift 210lbs, then being asked to lift 200lbs, tests your abilities.
This is how God tests spirits of different spiritual strengths/traits. The people in the most difficult tests, i.e., the people of Islam and others with the highest degree of challenges are the strongest spirits. The strength of their faith is easily apparent. They are a lot more sure that God exists than many other faiths. Their test is great and about 10-20 percent fail the test and become terrorists, but the rest are some of the most humble and spiritual people I know. IMHO.
Same with some of the Christians in this country, "Jealousy does not explain why Whites dressed up in hoods and burned crosses in yards, bombed churches, murdered people, prevented them from voting, etc. and why their descendants today rationalize why it was all okay.
I repeat, "Hate is a learned trait."
But it is still a choice and a test. Many in this wounderful country had a similar difficult test because of their spiritual strength and a certian percentage of them failed as well.
That is just my humble opinion and who am I to say other than to attempt to observe, study, and apply obversation and knowledge and then formulate my opinion based upon those things.
First I tell the truth and then I formulate my opinion.
For example, I think there are lots of "fishy" things about 9/11 that need to be explained, and I am withholding my opinion until more facts are known.
For example, the Pentagon could not possibily have been hit by a plane. FACT. Search for "In Plane Sight" on www.youtube.com and view part 1 of six to see what I mean.
FAR.
Sorry I have nothing to add of substance. I just enjoyed the interplay.
Hate? Yes hate is learned. You are not born with it.
We are born with a predisposition to Character.
Can people be born with a predisposition to Evil? Probably so.
To a degree we are a product of our environment, not entirely so, but definitely shaped. FAR is right in that we do make choices in regards to how we respond to our environment. II, is also right in that there are some things that just impact us, and we have no choice in the matter.
Anyway, I enjoyed the discussion on my drive by.
MrSleep,
Thanks for the drive by and for the comment. Glad you visited.
FAR.
You don't have to convince me about the fishiness of the official 9/11 story. It reaks to high heaven in several regards, including the lack of explanation for the mysterious collapse of Bldg. 7. But that's a discussion for another time.
Interesting point you made about Muslims and you may be on to something. I've often wondered how American evangelicals reconcile their pathological fear of practically everything under the sun with their so-called faith in God. You can't have both. Seems to me that if you have true faith, you would trust that God has a plan and everything is part of it.
Back to the point about evil, you say it is a learned trait, but how does that square with the concept of original sin?
Terrorists who kill Americans in the name of God, believe they will be made happy in an after life, or in other words they do it because of what they believe, not because they are poor or we are trying to give them freedom, or we are in their country. They "hate" us no matter where we are because it is natural for evil to hate good.
The funny thing is they are saying the same thing about us.
Why do people kill and rob or blow themselves up? While there may be exception the majority simply feel powerless and have no hope.
We are good so the "evil" Muslims hate us. That would be funny if not for the fact that so many mindless people believe it.
The U.S.A. is gods favorite just like the bible says......hhmmm
T or C,
What is funny is the fact that if we stopped doing anything in the world and became Isolationists, the Terror would not stop because they want to see the entire world under the Caliphate, or Muslim Political/Religious Law. The Terrorists believe in just the opposite of Seperation of Church and State.
Why do people kill and rob or blow themselves up? While there may be exception the majority simply feel powerless and have no hope.
Nope, the majority of those who are blowing themselves up are doing it because they believe it will bring them 72 virgins in a better after life, not because of being powerless or not having any hope. They are the few that don't want freedom, but instead want a "regulated" life where women are treated as third class citizens and are beaten a few times a week to keep them in line.
If you want to say that those few who want that life of beating their wives and blowing up their fellow muslims are the "good guys" and we are the "bad guys" for trying to help the women and men who want freedom instead, then go ahead and try to "sell that idea" as being rational.
FAR.
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