Friday, October 27, 2006

Most of Americans cannot see the truth.

The great majority of those on both the right and the left have lost their ability to see truth. Both sides have lost their perspective because of falling for “talking points” instead of thinking logically without emotion or the fear of having your worldview turned upside down.

This has led to the lack of being able to use rational thought. One blogger told me that he could not think of one good point on the conservative side. Does that really sound like rational thought? Can he really be objective when he thinks the world is so simplistic that he can reduce it to a binary “black and white” solution? Dems are right and Repubs are wrong on ALL POINTS?

The radical left does not want what is best for our country. They only want to punish the Republicans because they believe they are evil. The rhetoric on both sides is “They can do no right!” and “They have no values!”

The Left has a special way of turning off the debate in this country by just picking a conversation destroying word from the following list…. Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, Bigot, Intolerant, Xenophobic, and then they think that they have won and the discussion is over because they have put you in a box and in your place. They think with their heart instead of their brain.

In reality, both sides have their values, but only a person who realizes that the first part of honest discussion is to “tell the truth” and then state your opinion is really the only one who is thinking rationally.

Both sides are being forced to choose between good values. For example, having to choose between the value of “Free Speech” and the value of “Equality.” Campaign Finance Reform is a good example of destroying “Free Speech” in the name of “Equality.” The left falsely thinks that telling the voters that they “shall not” be able to give the amount of money they wish to a candidate of their choice, is a way to provide equality, but it really stifles free speech and insures that only the rich will be able to get elected, because the rich can put as much of their own money into an election as they wish. Only someone with an open mind will be able to see the truth of what I just pointed out.

We are also being forced to choose between “Freedom” and “Safety.”

But when it all comes down to it, the side that is most right is the side that is for “Competition.” The left is for destroying competition but their brain will not let them see this important truth. Unions, Transfer Payments, Redistribution of Income, Welfare, Welfare Health Care, and Affirmative Action all are forms of destroying competition. Economic “Equality” is not a good value; it is a barrier to economic prosperity. You cannot have success without failure and the left refuses to allow anyone to fail. When someone gets “fined” in a Court of Law it is easy to see that taking someone’s money against his or her will is a form of punishment, but when it is unfair taxation, most on the left cannot see that it is a form of punishment.

The single most important reason that this country is so rich and successful is because people are allowed to compete. Competition lowers prices, and eliminates waste. As Winston Churchill once said, “There are no obscene profits, only obscene losses.” If profits are too large, then competitors will emerge and lower the profits. The Democratic Party is unknowingly destroying the Middle Class and the people who support it have lost their ability to see it.

The Patriot Act has some flaws in it; (See Conservative Judge Andrew Napolatono’s book about the flaws), the Presidents plan of holding enemy combatants for military tribunals without habeas corpus is a crushing blow to keeping the government from wielding too much power. The law is too broad, with no sunset provision and no distinction of citizens or non-citizens. At least the accused that is a U.S. citizen should be allowed to have habeas corpus, (an immediate arraignment to determine if one is being “lawfully” imprisoned), and full rights granted to those who are U.S. citizens. These are all good points that the Democrats could argue, but instead they just want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, because they cannot admit that the other side is doing ANYTHING right. Only those who have an open mind will be able to see these points.

Again, these things could be fixed if both sides would work together, but instead the party out of power will never give the other side ANY credit because it will mean supporting the other party’s power.

If the President would all of the sudden be for Gay Marriage the Democrats would all of the sudden be silent because they could no way say the Republicans were doing something that in their mind was right. Before long the public would have to say, “well the Republicans must be doing a great job, because even the Dems are saying so.” So what we wind up with is nothing but negativism about even good ideas from either side. And both sides will cheer their sides “Negativism” instead of thinking about the facts.

I was a Democrat during the John F. Kennedy days because I believed they were for the little guy. I still believe that “Giant” Corporations are Amoral and have way too much influence on all government actions, but the answer is not more government control, but rather to get rid of the legal entity known as a “Corporation” and only allow partnerships and family trusts.

Corporations have no personality or morality, while family owned businesses do. Family owned businesses might not choose to do business with the devil, while a corporation has no problem doing it. Democrats are fooled into thinking that Corporations are just for the Republicans, but in reality they are for both parties and donate large amounts to both sides so that no matter who wins, they will be taken care of. While the Democrats say they are against the rich, I would bet that there are more rich Democrats in congress than Republicans.

When the Democratic Party started down the road to “Socialism” by embracing all sorts of ridiculous anti-competition ideas, I decided to become a Libertarian. But because voting for a Libertarian means allowing an Anti-Competition Democrat to win, I must support the Republican Party.

25 Comments:

At 8:21 AM, Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

The Democratic Party is unknowingly destroying the Middle Class and the people who support it have lost their ability to see it.

You accuse others of bias, but this post lacks a basic objectivity and intellectual honesty. Considering that Republicans have been in undisputed, unchallenged power for the last 6 years, what exactly have Democrats "done" to destroy the middle class? I am sorry, but it is the Republican party (with the collusion of many Democrats) that has spent the past 6 years accelerating both the destruction of the middle class and destruction of what makes America America.

With regard to middle class America, the "reformed" bankruptcy act essentially ensures that anyone who has the unfortunate situation of being unable to afford insurance and has a medical disaster will be left with nothing. That was a Republican bill.

The Republican party approved $15 billion in welfare to the oil industry while cutting VA benefits, but you are clamoring on about Democrats. Pleez.

You always pay lip service to the PATRIOT Act, but you really understate the damaging effect these continuous assaults have on the Constitution. We are not choosing between freedom and safety, we are choosing between America and fascism and Americans seem to be advocating the latter.

Make all the excuses you want for repealing habeus corpus protections, but let's be clear - habeus corpus is the fundamental foundation of liberty. If you cannot unequivocally condemn those who would even suggest getting rid of it, let alone actively oppose those who would have the audacity to do it, then you are a fascist.

How is it that Republicans have been in unquestioned, unprecedented power for the past 6 years and you are blaming the Democrats for the destruction of America? Seriously FAR, what happened to all that taking responsiblity blather the Republicans love to peddle (except when it applies to them)?

 
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At 3:20 PM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

ii,

Both Parties are guilty! The reason I pick the Dems for destroying the Middle Class is because of the reasons I listed.

They are all about getting rid of Competition! Unions, Welfare, Higher Taxes on the Working Class, (yes they pay lip service to taxing the rich, but do you really think the super rich like John Kerry, George Soros, John Edwards, Ted Kennedy would really increase the taxes on themselves? They have the Dems fooled.

I unequivocally condem the elimination of heabus corpus as something that every U.S. Citizen should have, no matter what.

I don't like either Party, but the Dems are attacking the middle class by attacking our economic freedom far more than the other side of the isle, and the Republicans are saying we need more Police Powers without regard to U.S. Citizens.

You like the Dems, I like the Republicans only slightly more because they at least don't promote two destructive acts....Attacking private property rights in the courts, Kelso case, and in the public economy. While the Republicans are taking more police power. Neither is good for our country.

There is no freedom without economic freedom. I think most Republicans will eventually wake up over the police power grab, but the Dems will always attack our economic system.

Thats the difference!

FAR.

 
At 5:37 PM, Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

I still do not understand how you defend the Republican party. You say the Democrats are all about destroying competition, but it is the Republican party that handed no-bid contracts on everything from Katrina Relief to Iraq war supplies. No bid contracts are the essence of destroying competition and they have been a hallmark of this administration.

You accuse the Democrats of destroying the middle class with welfare, but you say nothing of the corporate welfare that the Republicans have generously given for the past 6 years, from welfare to the energy corporations to a bridge to nowhere in Alaska. How about the billions in welfare that are given to foreign nations? Not a peep. And I am supposed to be worried about a single mom with 5 kids who gets $600 month. Israel gets almost $10 billion, Egypt gets $2 billion. Although patriotism is an infantile sentiment, I'd argue that it is far more patriotic to give our nation's money to our citizens than to foreigners.

And, at the end of the day, economic freedom means nothing if the Constitution has no teeth. What good is it if I don't have to pay taxes, but the president can declare martial law, label anyone an enemy combatant and throw them in jail with no right to habeus? Distilling your argument, you believe that money is more important than the Constition (i.e. freedom) and it is that sentiment that has helped the Republicans sell this country fascism with a smile.

 
At 8:55 AM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

ii,

I have always condemed Corporate Welfare as you well know.

I don't like transfer payments and I truely believe that transfer payments are immoral.

My dislikes for the Dems are so numerous I don't have enough time to list them, so I will list the things I don't like about the Republicans on this response and then have an entire post on what I don't like about the Dems.

Things I don't like about what the Republicans are doing:

1. Spending is out of control.
2. Some provisions in the Patriot Act are unconstitutional and should be either removed or fixed with safe guards.
3. Not enough attention to the Borders. Who thinks allowing everyone univnited in their house is a good idea?
4. The grab for more police powers is the most concern.
5. All Foriegn Aid should be stopped. (Both Parties are guilty of this!)
6. Tax loopholes for the Super Rich. Get rid of the Income tax altogether. (There should be a fair tax, like the flat tax or like Europes Value Added National Sales tax.) Again both parties are the problem with taxes.

Well there might be a few more, but I don't think money is more important than the Constitution, just that the power grab is easier to fix than the decades of the Dems attack on Competition that will continue forever with more Dems in power.

Again the Dems to me are much, much, worse and I will blog on that next.

One of my strengths has always been to analyse facts without emotion and it is clear that the side with the most hate is where the evil is and I don't think very many Republicans hate any Democat. Of course there will always be the exceptions, but by far the Dems have the most hate.


FAR.

 
At 10:10 AM, Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

I am sorry FAR, but you are not being objective. You keep stating that Democrats have stifled competition, but you offer nothing but hollow conclusory statements with no facts. You are using very broad generalizations and excusing the Republicans by saying that "some" of them have certain beliefs. Why isn't it just "some" Democrats?

Your argument is fatally flawed because it rests on the assumption that Republicans would do things differently and 6 years of them in unchecked power belies any such contention. Remember our discussion about the sale of Unocal? Who was behind squashing that sale? What about no-bid contracts for Katrina relief? What about tax subsidies to energy corporations (which necessarily hinder competition because it doesn't let the market decide which companies should live and die)? The only way your argument survives is if there is a way to quantify these things and, based upon that error, you quantify these things to equal less than unions and personal welfare. That is where you go astray and betray this so-called objectivism. Indeed, I would bet you that if we weighed the monetary value of $15 billion in subsidies to Exxon and the no-bid contracts to Halliburton against the union welfare given to employees, the Republican welfare would be much worse. By billions.

The notion that it is easier to reverse a power grab than hinderance of competition is laughable. Really laughable and completely contradicted by real life examples. Take Russia and China as great examples. They both did about faces on statist economics, but can't shake the totalitarian governments. In any event, I think you have it bass ackwards because there is no instance when rulers willingly cede the powers they have. And how likely are they to do so when they have removed every bit of liberty that provides the challenge to that power?

The reason for the Constitution is to check unbridled power, yet you continue to argue that transgressions of that sort are no big deal and easily fixed.

Equally absurd is this notion that Democrats have more hate than Republicans. By what measure do you determine that Dems have more hate? Are we lining up the number of pundits on either side, because Fox News and its Republican bootlickers preach hate in spades. How about Limbaugh, Falwell and Robertson? How about George Allen referring to someone as Macaca? How do you quantify that hate for comparison purposes? You can't and, thus, it is impossible to reach the definitive conclusions you peddle here.

 
At 12:02 PM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

So,

Are you saying the Dems are all good?

I never said any transgressions are no big deal.

Are you mad at me for daring to differ or is it just passion for the Dems?

As I said, I will detail the Dems flaws in my next post.

Can you name some things the Dems are doing poorly?


FAR.

 
At 12:29 PM, Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

FAR,

Don't try to dodge the point. This isn't about defending the Democrats and I am not going to chase that red herring.

This is about your consistent failure to defend the basis of your quantifications and your broad brush strokes for the Dems and halfhearted lip service about Republican destruction of America. You repeatedly resort to "the Democrats are worse than Republicans" and it is a broken record. Considering that the Republicans have been in power for 6 years, it is a broken record that was on the Billboard charts 10 years ago and is now in the $.99 clearance rack at the store.

You say you value freedom, but spend an inordinate amount of time complaining about unions (which, btw, are being gutted by the day), while ignoring what the Republicans are doing to fundamentally destroy America. The Republicans are doing everything you accuse the Democrats of doing, but you pay no attention to that. You repeatedly downplay their transgressions. In my view, their treason against America is worse because they have not only destroyed competition, but they use the Constitution as toilet paper and you Republicans refuse to take responsibility and just blame Clinton.

What I find most intellectually dishonest is that you consistently phrase things as "Democrats are bad" but then halfheartedly pay lip service to the existence of "some" bad Republicans. You consistently paint your group (whether it is Christians or Republicans) as holy and sound and, when confronted with facts to the contrary, you pay lip service to the few bad apples. But when the bad apples of another group do something, it becomes evidence that there is more hate with that group. It's not honest.

 
At 12:41 PM, Blogger fetching jen said...

FAR, you ARE being objective and sticking to the facts. And the comments from II proves your point by not arguing apples to apples.

There are far too many politicians drunk with power in both parties. However, it is the liberals who are eroding the middle class, just the way they have kept minorities in poverty through give-away welfare programs, and their share-the-wealth programs... i,e, taxing those who are competitive and make money. And I agree with your assessment of the family-owned business vs. big corporate monstrocities. It is the family-owned business who bears the burdeon of the responsibility of hiring employees, dealing with labor laws, workers comp, corporate taxes and personal taxes, and stimulates the economy through their jobs and workers. Corporate giants get around labor laws and workers comp other than to pay the premiums, hire temp workers, take huge tax breaks from local governments and rarely contribute to local economy the way smaller businesses do.

Great and very thoughtful post FAR. Perhaps if II just READ what you write and didn't go at it with a red pen for the thrill of the argument, she'd see your points more clearly. You're not making the party line case for either party - just better defining party philosophy and where you stand.

 
At 1:07 PM, Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

FJ & FAR -

More conclusory statements about Democrats eroding the middle class, but no facts. Did Democrats put a gun to the heads of the middle class and make them take on mortgages that they can't afford? No. Did Democrats force companies to move to China and India? No. You can argue that unions forced that, but the entertainment industry is union dominated and remains here in LA. Did Democrats force Ford to keep producing SUV's at the expense of innovation thus increasing the market share of foreign auto companies?

No. The middle class is eroding based upon systemic issues that have absolutely nothing to do with which party is in power. It is the nature of the corporate capitaslism that is America - a stock market that demands more and more profits and increased "efficiency" regardless of the effect on the people of America.

You guys cannot dispute these FACTS and, thus, continue to go nowhere on these blame the Democrats merry go-rounds.

 
At 2:38 PM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

ii,

Said: The Republicans are doing everything you accuse the Democrats of doing, but you pay no attention to that. You repeatedly downplay their transgressions.

I could say..."The Democrats are doing everything you accuse the Republicans of doing, but you pay no attention to that. You repeatedly downplay their transgressions."....and it would be just as true.

I think both parties are guilty of taking us down the wrong path and gave some examples in this post, but I will be a lot more explicit with details, but I would really like to know if you think the Dems have any flaws and can state any.

People who only see bad in one party have been brainwashed just like sheep and have failed to be able to see the truth. Only those with a true objective mind can say the things that BOTH parties are doing to destroy America.

I don't give just lip service to Corporate Welfare, I don't just give lip service to Corporations being bad to our society, I don't give just lip service to overspending by both parties. I say them with full understanding that I can see the fault no matter which side has it, but can you bring yourself to do the same?

I still think the world of you even though we disagree. Only a person who has no hate can get along with people who differ with their religion wheather it be the religion of the Liberals or the religion of the Conservatives.

The Liberals have the mess that Europe is in called "Socialism" as their religion and want to shout down anyone who dares to say that their might be something better.

The Liberal/Socialism way is to say that "every idea" is the same and not one idea is any better than any other. To them all forms of sex is the same, all forms of governemnt is the same, because no one should be able to critize by saying that one way is better. They focus on equality and P.C.

Notice that in France the press and government is afraid to say who those young people are that are blowing up cars everyday? I am amazed that they even will say "young people" for fear that they might insult them, after all they should just say "people."

It is the Left who shout you down when you say something they don't like. They call you bigot, intolerant, etc, to shut you up and end the conversation.

Please answer...What warts do the Dems have, or are they just fine?

FAR.

 
At 2:44 PM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

P.S.,

I pointed out in another post how the left had sold the myth about how good "Universial Health Care", was and gave you many examples. The left continues to persue that silly and horrible "solution" because they still think they have their sheep fooled.

FAR.

 
At 2:57 PM, Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

FAR -

I am not defending the Democrats. They suck just as badly as the Republicans do. That's why I find it irritating to read things that say one side is better than the other. Because it's dishonest.

The Democrats have plenty of flaws (which is why I am not a Democrat), but the Republicans have been in power and are currently in power and, thus, the flaws of the Democrats are utterly irrelevant to the debate that should be going on in America today. It is the Republican party that has overseen some of the most destructive legislation this country has EVER seen and that is what we need to fix if this country is to keep its soul.

You still haven't explained how you quantify hate from Dems v. hate from Repubs. You still haven't explains how you weigh erosion of the middle class with welfare v. erosion of competition with fake subsidies. You boldly declare one a greater evil than the other, but you don't explain the measure by which you reach that conclusion.

You are too smart to offer such shallow analysis and that is why I am always going to take you to task when you do instead of being a sycophantic, brainless cheerleader like so many others.
:-)

 
At 3:02 PM, Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

It is the Left who shout you down when you say something they don't like. They call you bigot, intolerant, etc, to shut you up and end the conversation.

Dude, have you watched Fox News lately? You can't seriously argue that the "Left" has a monopoly on yelling at those with whom they disagree. Please, be honest with this one and abandon such trivial examples.

 
At 3:06 PM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

ii,

Because it's dishonest

Intellectual Dishonesty is believing one thing and saying another.

I believe in all the things you can find in Bastiat's "The Law." He was mostly concerned with all of the things we find in the Democrat Party, i.e., Socialism by means of having a "club" in D.C. that work to stay in power no matter what and both parties do that, while only one party is moving us towards Socialism.

Since that is what I believe, then it is not being Intellectually Dishonest.

You believe the R's are worse and I believe the D's are worse. We both know that there are worts on both sides, but between the two of us, I am the only one that gives details of their side having warts, so which side gives lip service?


FAR.

 
At 3:09 PM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

Which side uses the list of words that I gave?

Do Republicans say people are....
Homophobic,
Bigoted,
Xenophobic,
etc?

FAR.

 
At 4:07 PM, Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

More red herrings. I am still waiting to hear your standard for quantifying hate. I am still waiting for you to explain why $15 billion to oil and no-bid contracts to Halliburton doesn't erode competition, but $600 to a single mother does. I am still waiting for an explanation for how an utterly irrelevant, powerless party has damaged America, but the party of unbridled power hasn't. I am still waiting to hear how non-unionized jobs like accounting and healthcare moving to India doesn't have anything to do with erosion of the middle class, but Democrats secret communist fantasies do.

You can talk all you like about Basquiat, but the fact is that the wants and desires of the Democratic party are irrelevant. Indeed, to prove your point, you do not point to what Democrats have done, but you throw the red herring of what foreign countries do. Oh no Canada's healthcare system is bad and, therefore, Democrats are communists. The former does not prove the latter.

To the extent America has moved toward socialism, explain how 6 years of unbridled power by Republicans hasn't contributed to that. Indeed, with all that the Republicans have managed to ram down the throats of Americans, you'd think we'd be a laissez faire capitalist society by now if Republicans really were about economic freedom and competition. But, alas, such is not the case, because they are not.

Hmmm, here we go again on the false comparisons with terminology, but I'll bite. I am sure there are Americans who use words like bigots, homophobes, etc. just like there are those who use throw around words like treason, terrorist-lovers and unpatriotic as labels for those with whom they disagree. But, I am sure you are going to tell me that only the liberals who use the words you list, but it's only a small group of aberrant conservatives who use the words I listed.

 
At 12:42 PM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

ii,

One of the reasons, (and I have said this often), that I really enjoy your comments is because you encourage me to crystalize and Articulate my beliefs and not be vague.

What I value most in the Blogosphere is the opportunity for those whom I contact to see that I am not an Automaton, but rather someone who focuses on the Truth no matter what side it is on.

I believe in what I say and I believe that most on the Left believes in what they say and only a few are able to see the truth and then deny it. (Intellectually Dishonest.) ( Most on the Left are sincere but just wrong, while I believe based upon what the left tells me and says in the Blogosphere that they do not believe that the right is sincere, but rather bad instead of sincere and wrong.)

That last point above is why I feel that the Left has more hate...They don't believe the right has good motives, if they did they would say so instead of personal attacks.

Back to why I feel the Left is worse.

1. I read the Patriot Act and found a few articles in it that should not have been there, so I wanted it revised to eliminate those power grabs. But the Left instead just throws out the baby with the Bathwater by saying the whole idea is bad, (Because it is a Repbulican Idea and they cannot bring themselves to even half-way support a Bush Idea!)

The "Old Media" is full of Liberals, (most surveys that I recall seeing show more than 85% are Liberal), but yet they refuse to acknowledge that there might be any bias whatsoever. Since they love the Dems, it makes me wonder why. Only a person with a truely open mind can even acknowledge the liberal bias in the "Old Media." Sure the talk radio is baised the other way but they make no bones about it.

The Left says they want an orderly society, but yet they seem to have a complete disdain for the military and the police. Those who think with their brains instead of their hearts can see the folly of the "Nevil Chamberlin" approach of "appeasement", but not the left.

As far as interrogation, only those with an open mind can see that like "Burns", torture needs to be classified by "Degrees."

First Degree Burns are different than third degree burns, but I am supposed to think that while playing loud rap music would be "torture" to me, it would not be torture to some people, but yet again the left wants to throw out the baby with the bathwater and not even discuss the possibility that there might be "Degrees of Torture that should be defined. Nope can't do anyting uncomfortable to anyone who is uncomfortable with that something.


I won't disagree with any of your points, because they contain truth.

But I would hope you would look for the truth in what I just said and not just summarily dismiss it as meaningless or the other side is worse.

Thanks to you I find myself as usual seeing both sides and then trying to articulate to both of us, why I feel one side is worse.

And so, the need for a complete new post.

Thanks for the challange, I love it because it shapens my clarity on why I think the left is worse.

:)



FAR.

 
At 2:31 PM, Blogger mrsleep said...

FAR, II, I always enjoy your interchanges because the engagement and passion levels are high, and no quarter is given, only earned.

The problem I have with the argument is that I don't see a Right and a Left. That is an oversimplication. All have a combination of values made up of some combination of Liberal and Conservative values. Yes, some people are 100% conservative, or 100% liberal, but those are the minority.

FAR you make one comment that both Dem's and Rep's are in bed with big business, yet you also say Dem's are trying to destroy or inhibit competition, and there by hurt big business.

That doesn't seem to add up.

I consider myself a moderate, sharing some positions with both you and II.

There are many that would characterize this combination of views as being wishy washy. Frankly I don't give a rats ass.

Our problem and opportunity is we have a true Global economy. America used to be able to call the shots and we no longer can. Traditionally Dem's sided with the working man and Unions, and Rep's sided with big business.

Unions are dying in many respects, and the only evidence of them remaining is in government.

The pursuit of profit alone will really hurt our country in the long run. We have shipped too many manufacturing jobs offshore, and this is really putting us at risk. We have to maintain some level of manufacturing expertise domestically in a broad cross section of industries, and I would argue there are some industries we have to target to keep onshore.

We are already becoming a debtor nation. If we become dependent upon other countries for critical manufactured goods then we are putting ourselves in a position to be held hostage.

Our military is not as mighty as we might think, and the horrific fiscal policy of this administration of not paying our way, and offering braindead tax cuts while increasing spending is going to hurt us big time.

That Bill will come due, and when it hits, its going to hurt this country something awful.

This wizzing match on Republicans, and Democrats is causing all of us to take our eyes off what is really at stake for our Nation "our future".

Last point. Degrees on Torture.
Puhleeze. Don't you understand that is an incredibly liberal viewpoint. This is my only potshot at Republicans in this post. Republicans have become the worlds biggest rationalizers.

You can talk all you want about terrorists, God, religious beliefs, etc.

Any degree of Torture is flat ass unacceptable, and it has nothing to do with being wimpy, or moderate. I'm as hard ass as they come, and it turns my stomach to see anyone, rationalize our leaderships approach on Torture.

 
At 3:31 PM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

mrsleep,

FAR you make one comment that both Dem's and Rep's are in bed with big business, yet you also say Dem's are trying to destroy or inhibit competition, and there by hurt big business.

I can see why you would be confused, but the above is not a good synopsis of my position.

Big Bussiness is in bed with both, but the Dems are trying to inhibit competition by trying to bring about "economic equality." Both Parties, love Corporate Money.

So, playing rap music would be torture to me and to some of the captured terrorists, and it should not be allowed even thou it would not be torture to some of our citizens, but rather a pleasure?

How do you define torture? Anything that is uncomfortable?

To me the torture that I feel would/should be unaccaptable is anything that I would not feel is right for the enemy to do to us and I certianlly would think sleep depraviation and loud music would be fair game if I was captured.


FAR.

 
At 7:49 AM, Blogger mrsleep said...

We are not talking about loud music.

The are probably various degrees of rape, child abuse, murder.

Would you take the same position to rationalize that an adult fondeling a young child without any penetration to be ok?

What we are talking about is condoning "some" forms of torture.

Torture is torture.

No I don't get your analysis on Dem's taking money from Corporations, then Dem's essentially from your view, stabbing Corporations in the back.

It defies logic.

Any Politician wants American Industry strong, and able to compete in the WW marketplace. They also want our businessees to fight on an even playing field. Suggesting otherwise is ludicrous.

Republicans basically say to business, anything goes, we trust your judgement. The Republicans take money to turn a blind eye to what is going on.

Democrats say we don't trust your judgement because you have demonstrated that you get away with anything if you can. We'll help you, but that help is conditional.

 
At 3:59 PM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

Mrsleep,

Torture is tortue because we don't have degrees! That is my point.

Torture is defined by the Dictionary as: "Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion."

So, you can't compare it to "fondling."

The whole problem is the Dems refusal to even allow discourse on what would be acceptable.

The methods they complained about were:

1. Making their room uncomfortable by raising or lowering the temperature.
2. Using "Truth Drugs" like Sodium Pentathal (sp?).
3. Sleep Depravation.

Come on, are we supposed to just say.."Have a nice day" if we suspect they have knowledge that would save lives?

The Dems accept tens of millions of Money from the Big Corporations with the idea that it doesn't matter to them who wins because either side will be beholding.

85% of American business are small business and so that is where the Dems focus on harming them by:
1. Telling them who they can hire.
2. How much they must pay their lowest paid workers.
etc, etc.

FAR.

 
At 7:44 AM, Blogger mrsleep said...

Dialogue on Torture? Why are we talking about this at all. If we are doing nothing wrong then why do we even have to talk about it?

Rendition? No limits there, how do you feel about dem apples (pun intended)

 
At 8:21 AM, Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

mrsleep,

Dialogue on Torture? Why are we talking about this at all.

Did you even read what I said?

To some playing loud rap music is torture. Do you think that applies to everyone? If not, then we need a better definition of torture.

I just showed you the Dictionary definition only includes "SEVERE PHYSICAL" pain, but I think it needs to be broken down into three levels:

1. First Degree Torture - Severe Physical Pain.
2. Second Degree Torture - Severe Psycological Pain like waterboarding and other forms of Near death.
3. Third Degree Torture - Mild Psycological Pain like Sleep Deprevation, Sodium Pentathol (sp?) and playing loud music, etc.

The problem with not addressing this and other subjects is that rational people cannot work together if one side just says, "nope, we can't even talk about it!" How silly is that?


FAR.
3.

 
At 12:20 PM, Blogger pappy said...

No corporations? What would we all do with our 401s or 403s? I have plans to retire in 4 years. lol

 

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