Prop 8 Battle
The prop 8 battle may very well wind up in court and if it does, I somehow doubt the people who will be there defending the "Yes" side will be able to recognize the proper way to defend against the other side. Here is the statement that they should use that can't be refuted.
Their argument is based upon "gays" not having a right that "straights" have. It is called the "Equal Protection Clause" in the Constitution.
I don't think they can articulate that position when they stick to that premise.
If they try to say that they can't marry who they love, then the argument is not about equal rights, but that one group wants to change the definition of marriage, and that is not what their "legal" argument is.
It is based upon "Equal Protection" which suggests that "straights" have "more" rights. They don't. Straights have the same "rules" of marriage that gays do. Neither can marry the same sex.
There is no denial of rights! And this is the proof:
If a "gay male" and a "straight male" both want to marry the same guy....(The same gay male), both the straight male and the gay male have equally the same rights and same restrictions. They both are not allowed to marry another male.
This and only this statement should be argued in front of the judges. Normally the other side will try to change the subject or just attack the statement, but the "Yes" side should stick to this one and only one position because it completely refutes their argument that there are rights being denied to the gay person that the stright person has under the "Equal Protection Clause" of the California Constitution. THIS IS JUST A LIE!
Try to show how one side can marry the same sex, while the other side can't marry the same sex! What if a straight male wanted to marry another straight male just to get the benifits of the marriage contract? They are denied the same as if two gays want to do the same thing.
Therefore under the "Equal Protection Clause" there is no need for a change to the Constitution, and Prop 8 was properly voteded on as an "Admendment" and not a "Change."
I challenge anyone to show how gays are being denied a "right" to marry the same sex and the "straights" somehow are allowed!
posted by Free Agency Rules @ 2:08 PM
12 comments
12 Comments:
Nice to have you back in the blogosphere FAR.
I also think the Yes on 8 folks need to make a First Amendment argument. The separation of church and state about which liberals love to whine about incessantly goes both ways. Just as church isn't permitted in State affairs, such as public school, then the State should not be permitted to interfere with church affairs, such as the definition of marriage.
These people are denied nothing by way of the definition of marriage. CA's domestic partnership law gives them full rights of spouses. The only thing denied them is the label of marriage and the only reason they want it is to socially engineer society to accept homosexuality as the equivalent of heterosexuality.
It's really absurd how people have accepted their assumptions about denial of rights on the merits.
Great Point! One I had not though of.
I agree completely about it being all about them being able to "normalize" what they do by being able to say "I am married."
I want them to show "their tolerance" by giving our side a very minor thing.
I am all for "Domestic Partnership" or "Civil Unions."
I don't care what anyone does in their bedroom as long as it isn't interfering with anyone else's rights.
One other point that might be argued.
Rights are not given out in the form of "licenses", but priviledges are.
Drivers Licenses, Business Licenses, Marrige Licenses, etc are all "Priviledges" not rights. The state sactions the marriages by the Churches because it has learned that children who are raised in a stable Mom and Dad environment is best for the child because it learns things from both parents that it can't learn from just one sex.
I know the argument from the other side will be "look at all the failed marriages", but that has nothing to do with the benefit of learning "nurturing and compassion" from the female, and "Strenght, fearlessness, and Security" from the male.
The other side keeps presenting this ridiculous argument that "there is no differences" between a man and a women. Hogwash, anyone with two eyes can see that there is and I don't just mean physical differences.
FAR.
Like you said...when the woman tells the man to stay in bed, while she checks on the noise late at night, then we can say that male and female are the same. :)
When the homosexuals protested the passage of Proposition 8, they held signs that said "Mormons Go To Hell" in front of the Mormon temple here in LA. Imagine if a bunch of Mormons held signs that said "homosexuals go to hell". It would be a hate crime and we'd be listening to endless somber stories about continued homophobia in our society.
We're having this discussion at Mahndisa's blog right now. It's just taken for granted that homosexuals are "minorities", a "protected class" and are being denied "civil rights". I must say, the homosexual lobby has done a fine job with its talking points.
Yes, I know about the protests....I was a Methodist all my single life and then converted to the Mormon faith many years ago after much study on all of the religions out there and came to the conclusion that they shared most of my already held beliefs, mainly that we all chose to be born, and am the captian of our own ship, and then my wife who was Catholic all of her life decided to study on her own and decided that she had more in common with my beliefs that she did her Catholic beliefs once she and I met with the Sister Superior and had a really nice long discussion about the differences in doctrine.
FAR.
You're Mormon?
Yep!
Many people don't really understand what my religion is all about. They read all of the anti-Mormon stuff without really wanting to here the other side with an open mind. I know at first that was how I was until I started with the premise...Here is what I believe, all of the religions out there disagree with each other on many points, so they can't be all right, and it may not be possible to "know" which one if any is "right", but which one has "most" of my beliefs? And it turned out to be the LDS religion. (Mormon is a nick name.)
FAR.
The biggest one of all that seperates most Christian beliefs from mine is the GOD Trinity.
God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
I believe they are three personages, with Only one God, God the Father, and One Perfect Son, Christ, and the Holy Ghost.
Most Christian Religions believe God and Jesus are one and the same.
I looked at Christ praying to his father in the Garden and asked myself, "Is he praying to himself?"
My yongest son puts it more bluntly...He says most Christians believe that God is a "Shape Shifting skitsophranic because he can be either God or Jesus at will and he talks to himself.
FAR.
Strange beliefs are in the eye of the beholder.
Everyone says, "my beliefs are normal, but theirs are wierd."
And then they proceed to have bigotry against the ones who don't share their views.
I remember hearing on Conservative talk radio, Conservative Christian after Conservative Christian saying..."I will not vote for Romney because he is Mormon!"
And God Bless him, Hugh Hewitt responded with... "So, your a Religious Bigot?"
Somehow, so many things fall into place. That's why you are so nice!
:-)
I don't know enough about Mormonism to say whether it's "wierd" (although people usually dismiss as wierd things they don't understand) - although the underwear things I've heard seem a bit peculiar - but I must say that I've never met a mean Mormon. It's probably the lack of caffeine. :-)
Proof is in the pudding about the wisdom of a practice when the people actually practice what they preach. Other religions could use a lesson or two.
My cousin married a Mormon and a woman I grew up with married a guy who converted from Mormonism. Mormons and Muslims are some of the last people on the planet who actually take their religions seriously and don't countenance all the secular whitewashing of religion that has become so fashionable.
You are very kind II. You have a good heart and it is apparent from your posts. It is one of the reasons that I value your friendship even though we have not met. You are very respectful and have always used logic and sound reasoning whenever we disagree and I love you for it.
FAR.
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